if I'm predestined for hell, then John Calvin in predestined for these hands
spencer wood
before we go much farther, two things
1. I am [partially] a free will baptist
2. Calvin is only 60% wrong
let's just go through TULIP
1. Total Depravity
before we go much farther, two things
1. I am [partially] a free will baptist
2. Calvin is only 60% wrong
let's just go through TULIP
1. Total Depravity
This is one I agree with. Man has sinned and is dead in our transgressions [Eph. 2:5]. Paul said the wages of sin is death [Rom 6:23], and all have sinned [Rom 3:23]. HOWEVER, this does NOT negate our ability to freely chose God by saying that 'if we are wholely lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?' that is the beauty of salvation, that we didn't earn it and we do not deserve it. but it was still provided for us
2. Unconditional Election
this one is slippery.
Yes -- God doesn't give his love based on our condition. (physical, mental, socioeconomic, etc.) if he did no one would be saved [total depravity]
No -- Christ did NOT die for SOME. Christ died for all. His atonement covers all and is freely given to all even though it might not be accepted by all.
This completely negates free will and takes away from the potency of our worship by saying that 'we don't choose to worship God we are forced to' also if we were created to worship and please God why would he create things that are incapable of doing that very thing and how would a perfect creator create something that does the opposite of what it was created to do.
3. Limited Atonement
This is a little clearer. Even though Christ's death on the cross provided atonement (which it did), that gift of life is not discriminated from 'those who weren't chosen' Christ died for whosoever believed [Jn. 3:16] and salvation is given if you believe and confess [Rom. 10:9] with no regard for if whoever believed and confessed were chosen beforehand.
4. Irresistible Grace
This says that if you are chosen, then there is nothing you can do about it. But it also says if you are NOT chosen, there is nothing you can do about it. So you either have no hope of spending eternity with your creator, or you are dragged kicking and screaming into salvation. And if you really want to know what I think about being dragged read any blog I wrote about Plato's cave.
5. Preservation of the Saints
This I am on board with. You cannot lose your salvation. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand [Jn. 10:28] (BTW those letters are red)
So again, total depravity is mostly right, and preservation of the saints is real, but the other three can and have been disproven by men much smarter than me.
this website goes through TULIP and is where I gathered information as to not be incorrect in my argument http://www.prca.org/pamphlets/pamphlet_41.html
2. Unconditional Election
this one is slippery.
Yes -- God doesn't give his love based on our condition. (physical, mental, socioeconomic, etc.) if he did no one would be saved [total depravity]
No -- Christ did NOT die for SOME. Christ died for all. His atonement covers all and is freely given to all even though it might not be accepted by all.
This completely negates free will and takes away from the potency of our worship by saying that 'we don't choose to worship God we are forced to' also if we were created to worship and please God why would he create things that are incapable of doing that very thing and how would a perfect creator create something that does the opposite of what it was created to do.
3. Limited Atonement
This is a little clearer. Even though Christ's death on the cross provided atonement (which it did), that gift of life is not discriminated from 'those who weren't chosen' Christ died for whosoever believed [Jn. 3:16] and salvation is given if you believe and confess [Rom. 10:9] with no regard for if whoever believed and confessed were chosen beforehand.
4. Irresistible Grace
This says that if you are chosen, then there is nothing you can do about it. But it also says if you are NOT chosen, there is nothing you can do about it. So you either have no hope of spending eternity with your creator, or you are dragged kicking and screaming into salvation. And if you really want to know what I think about being dragged read any blog I wrote about Plato's cave.
5. Preservation of the Saints
This I am on board with. You cannot lose your salvation. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand [Jn. 10:28] (BTW those letters are red)
So again, total depravity is mostly right, and preservation of the saints is real, but the other three can and have been disproven by men much smarter than me.
this website goes through TULIP and is where I gathered information as to not be incorrect in my argument http://www.prca.org/pamphlets/pamphlet_41.html
I commend your willingness to go outside of the sources to back up your points. I haven't studied much on Calvinistic views but from what I have read, I completely agree with your conclusions. TULIP is something I've actually never heard before so thats a clever little thing and I'm glad you shared it.
ReplyDeleteThank you informing us on this as well as sharing your own opinions. I see your points and I completely agree based on the information provided. You presented the 5 points in a way that was easy to understand and I definitely appreciate that.
ReplyDelete