Augustine, Thanos, and Frodo Baggins -Will Brady
Today's reading made my brain turn to jelly at times and I'll be moving faster than I'd like all weekend, so apologies in advance if any of the following fails to take the entire reading into account. Honestly, I can't keep track of all Augustine says about a single subject, and I haven't quite got the time to make a spreadsheet. Without further ado...
Ah, book XI. Let's subject ourselves to the torture of attempting to sort out the nature of time and God's pre-Creation existence. The first thing Augustine's stances on time brought to my mind was a quote from that esteemed utilitarian philosopher, Thanos the Mad Titan. "Now is no time for tears. Now is no time at all." In what feels at first like a pun/throwaway line, Thanos actually offers a provoking thought on the nature of time: if any man had the power to alter time at a whim, what is the result? If the present moment can call the past back into existence (as Thanos did at the end of Infinity War), is it still a past moment, or does it become a present moment for the second time? Augustine holds that the past (and future) is immeasurable, as it does not exist any longer, and that the present, always rushing from one immeasurable instant to the next, is all that exists. But if the present were all that there is and cannot be appropriately measured, is it still time? Thanos proves time by manipulating it and causing the past to return; he seems to agree that it can't be pegged down to a single "now." "Now is no time at all," because time is not bound to a static yet-ever-flowing "present." Put a blind man in a waist-deep river, and he will not be able to see any water except that which is flowing past him at that one spot. But it will be easy for him to perceive that the water was coming from one place and heading to another, and that the entire thing is a river, not just the spot where he stands. How many individual drops of water are flowing past him? He has no way of knowing. He wouldn't even know what volume of water constitutes a single "drop." In trying to move about the river, finding its source (like a historian) or following it (like a futurist), he only proves that, while he cannot control the waters or experience them all at once, he can find where the water came from and where it is going, and determine that there is more water than he can perceive "now."
I remember Augustine questioning how God could tell prophets of future events if the future didn't exist (but I can't find it right now, lol); I would try to insert God into the river analogy, but that does not work quite as well (and I'm not terribly fond of that shaky analogy regardless). For God, I much prefer the author comparison. Time is a book, and God is the author. Frodo Baggins in The Two Towers has no way of returning to the quiet of the Shire with Bilbo in The Fellowship of the Ring, and he has no way of skipping ahead to the conclusion of The Return of the King. He's stuck right on the page he's on until the story is finished--but Tolkien, writing the book, was not. He existed firmly outside the timeline of the book and was not bound by it. He knew the beginning, the middle, and the end, and it all existed concurrent to him. He could visit and edit what he pleased, where he pleased. Frodo could think that his happy life was gone forever and that the end of the journey did not exist, but neither were true for Tolkien. Such is God--the past and future must still exist, because God, outside of time, knows every detail of and can visit them both. God isn't a time-traveller, of course; He would have to be bound by time to be that. (And as far as Augustine asking how God could speak the universe into existence if speech required the pre-existence of time, consider this: it was through the words of God that time was first created. The instant He uttered the first syllable was the first instant; time existed to meet His need as He called it, not before.)
Am I making sense? My brain isn't terribly brainy today, so probably not. Am I overthinking things, especially in regards to our favorite genocidal purple alien? Oh, absolutely. But so is Augustine by bringing this up and going this deep in the first place, arguably. But y'all have a good day, provided it actually exists!
P.S. I commented on Breanna and Kayla's posts.
Ah, book XI. Let's subject ourselves to the torture of attempting to sort out the nature of time and God's pre-Creation existence. The first thing Augustine's stances on time brought to my mind was a quote from that esteemed utilitarian philosopher, Thanos the Mad Titan. "Now is no time for tears. Now is no time at all." In what feels at first like a pun/throwaway line, Thanos actually offers a provoking thought on the nature of time: if any man had the power to alter time at a whim, what is the result? If the present moment can call the past back into existence (as Thanos did at the end of Infinity War), is it still a past moment, or does it become a present moment for the second time? Augustine holds that the past (and future) is immeasurable, as it does not exist any longer, and that the present, always rushing from one immeasurable instant to the next, is all that exists. But if the present were all that there is and cannot be appropriately measured, is it still time? Thanos proves time by manipulating it and causing the past to return; he seems to agree that it can't be pegged down to a single "now." "Now is no time at all," because time is not bound to a static yet-ever-flowing "present." Put a blind man in a waist-deep river, and he will not be able to see any water except that which is flowing past him at that one spot. But it will be easy for him to perceive that the water was coming from one place and heading to another, and that the entire thing is a river, not just the spot where he stands. How many individual drops of water are flowing past him? He has no way of knowing. He wouldn't even know what volume of water constitutes a single "drop." In trying to move about the river, finding its source (like a historian) or following it (like a futurist), he only proves that, while he cannot control the waters or experience them all at once, he can find where the water came from and where it is going, and determine that there is more water than he can perceive "now."
I remember Augustine questioning how God could tell prophets of future events if the future didn't exist (but I can't find it right now, lol); I would try to insert God into the river analogy, but that does not work quite as well (and I'm not terribly fond of that shaky analogy regardless). For God, I much prefer the author comparison. Time is a book, and God is the author. Frodo Baggins in The Two Towers has no way of returning to the quiet of the Shire with Bilbo in The Fellowship of the Ring, and he has no way of skipping ahead to the conclusion of The Return of the King. He's stuck right on the page he's on until the story is finished--but Tolkien, writing the book, was not. He existed firmly outside the timeline of the book and was not bound by it. He knew the beginning, the middle, and the end, and it all existed concurrent to him. He could visit and edit what he pleased, where he pleased. Frodo could think that his happy life was gone forever and that the end of the journey did not exist, but neither were true for Tolkien. Such is God--the past and future must still exist, because God, outside of time, knows every detail of and can visit them both. God isn't a time-traveller, of course; He would have to be bound by time to be that. (And as far as Augustine asking how God could speak the universe into existence if speech required the pre-existence of time, consider this: it was through the words of God that time was first created. The instant He uttered the first syllable was the first instant; time existed to meet His need as He called it, not before.)
Am I making sense? My brain isn't terribly brainy today, so probably not. Am I overthinking things, especially in regards to our favorite genocidal purple alien? Oh, absolutely. But so is Augustine by bringing this up and going this deep in the first place, arguably. But y'all have a good day, provided it actually exists!
P.S. I commented on Breanna and Kayla's posts.
I think you might make more sense than Augustine haha! I like your author analogy and do think it's important to know what we believe about this. If we don't know if we personally believe God controls time or if God is controlled by time, we have a very shaky foundation to stand on when people challenge God's sovereignty and omnipotence.
ReplyDeleteI always appreciate your references. How could I ignore a post with such an intriguing title? I liked your thoughts and analogies on this subject. They made the subject much clearer than Augustine did. I especially liked your river analogy. As an aspiring historian, having my trade compared to searching for the source of a river is intriguing and I will take time to ponder the implications of such an analogy.
ReplyDeleteI like the inclusion of Thanos and was impressed with the connection. Me and a professor were discussing the relationship between God and time with each other and I believe our repeated questions solved my confusion. Concerning God and time, God is in total control. This is because time has absolutely one purpose that does not even apply to God. Time tracks change. The only thing time has ever done is track change in creation, allowing us to compare the difference of something at two different states of change. Thankfully, the scriptures are very clear that God does not change and is therefore immutable. Now, considering God does not change, time has absolutely no power over Him and in fact he exists outside of time. In conclusion, there was no time, and it was not present until God carried out creation through the Son while the Spirit was providentially watching over it. Great post!
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